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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi all , I am new to the tiger world I seen super six but when on the tiger web site looking at the models. They don’t appear, secondly what are the pros and cons of theses cars, I am hopping to do track days as well as enjoy one on the road.
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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #2 
So having looked at the previous posts on here, I now understand what a super six is, now I am currently looking at buying a particular one with a 2 litre z etc silver top, now having driven a freinds E1 on a track with a Zetec, it was great fun, handling awesome, is the super six the same, which one in your opinion would favour the track better.
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Gazza

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Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Dreckly,

The Super 6 is quite a old model from Tiger Racing which is why it is not shown on their website, the opinions below are my own based on the cars that I have owned over the years or from people that have owned the model car.

Tiger Super 6 - The positives are:
- It was a slightly bigger and better car out of the tiger range and was also one of the more expensive kits they sold.
- It has a live axle from a Cortina which performs quite well both on the road and track.
- It has wish bone type suspension at the front with dampers that are angled downwards towards the outer part of the wishbones.
- The engine bay can take a range of engines but most will be fitted with a Pinto Engine as that was the common engine available at the time, so will have been fitted with a Zetec at a later date.
- If looked after there is either very to no depreciation in the car so a Super 6 bought for +/- £5k today should normally maintain its value so if you sold it in 5 years time you would still get £5k
- The ride quality is very good and I have driven all over the UK in mine.

 Tiger Super 6 - The negatives are:
- There are not many Tiger Super 6's that come up for sale and so they will demand a slightly higher price.
- The car is quite old now with some going back to the early 90's I bought mine in 99.
- The same applies to the Pinto Engines as they might not be as strong and robust as later model engines and sometimes need a bit more TLC as they will be running points and older webber carbs that will need tweeking.
- The Live axle isnt as good as some of the later Dedion car Tiger made.

Tiger Cat E1 - Positives are:
- There will be far more Cat E1's available for sale as it was one of the top selling cars at the time.
- Price of a Cat E1 will be lower when compared to some of the other Tiger Models at around the £4,500 - £5,000 mark
- There is a massive boot / storage area compared to other Tiger Models.

Tiger Cat E1 - Negatives are:
- Some of the cars will not be fully colour coded / painted as the Cat had Ali panels down the sides that could be left or paint depending on budget.
- Fixing the seat harness can sometimes be a issue as the straps need to be located in the boot area.
- The front suspension is a inboard rocker type that has broken from time to time if not lined / set up correctly.
- The inboard suspension also will not perform as well as the setup on the Super 6.
- The rear suspension on the Cat E1 uses the complete Dedion system from the Sierra Car and relies on small dampers from the Mini and coil  springs that fit into a holding cup.
- The engine bay can take a range of engines but most will be fitted with a Pinto Engine as that was the common engine available at the time, so will have been fitted with a Zetec at a later date.

For a good every day car the Tiger Avon GTM with a more enclosed body is a good option and there are plenty of areas where a storage box can be fitted.

For a good 7 type car the Avon is probably the best option on a budget as they will be cheaper than the Tiger R6 / R10, you will also find that most will be fitted with a Zetec Engine.

The best car out of the range will be the Tiger R6 / R10 but these do not come up for sale very often and will demand a higher price because of this, plus they have the better suspension both at the front and rear of the car.

Most Tiger R6's will be in the £10 - £12k range depending on condition of the car and again will tend to hold that price level in the years to come.     

The best thing would be to try and meet up with some of the clubs to look at all the models and talk to the owners.

Gazza




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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Gazza,
That is brilliant, and explains it all very nicely, I will bear all this in mind and shop accordingly, and I very much look forward to purchasing one and speaking to others. Once again thankyou very much for your help.
Dreckly
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Dick

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Reply with quote  #5 
My cat e1 has the rear beam that is the sierra irs to it have never seen a cat with a dedion . It also has the inboard suspension that are used on many race cars to reduce the un-sprung weight. but then im no expert.  
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overdriver

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Reply with quote  #6 
Might be being a bit picky but the Cat E1/Sierra rear suspension is a semi trailing arm set up NOT de Dion. The curved mounting bar on the Sierra tends to lead people into thinking that this is in some way a "de Dion tube".

Although de Dion has been used on other kit cars it is not a fully independent system which the Sierra is. As stated, the original dampers are bog standard classic Mini (fronts) but can be replaced with upgraded units from Spax, Protech, Gaz etc. and alternative springs with different ratings can be easily installed.

Michael.

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TOC_Admin

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Reply with quote  #7 
Why were the front suspension arms were mentioned as being weak on the Cat, but no mention was made of the Super 6 where connections to the live axle break?  Neither issue is common as there have only been a handful of reports of either, but it seems odd to only mention one and not the other in the negative points?

With regard to the actual cars, the driver and passenger space in the Cat is actually bigger then the Six and taller or wider people generally find the Cat a better fit.

The Cat came in three versions. The E1 which was the standard model and is usually fitted with skinny tyres, 165-175 width. The Super Cat, which has wider front wings and wider rear bodywork for 195-205 width tyres. Finally the XL, this had a modified chassis that was wider, giving more driver and passenger space width wise, modified bodywork and also used 195-205 tyres.

The Six developed into the R6 using round tubing, of which there were some extreme versions (Z100 and Z100WR twin bike engine monsters), as well as a B6 bike engine variant.  There is an R10, but I honestly couldn't tell you what the difference between the R6 and the R10 are.


Engines vary with early Sixes having a Kent engine, then moving on to the Pinto, with later examples or "upgraded" examples having a Zetec or Duratec, though there are several other engines which have been used including the Vauxhall Red Top and the Toyota 4AGE.

The Cat was designed as a single donor car, so is typically found with a Pinto engine, as that is what the donor had.  In 2000 I was the first to put a Zetec in the Cat when I built my car and also went down the throttle body fuel injection route for added excitement (or pain!).  Many people have since gone down the Zetec route and, more recently, the Duratec route.  Also, Pinto cars are typically upgraded to Duratec as the inlet and exhaust is on the same side on the Duratec and the Pinto, whereas the Zetec is the opposite way around, meaning extra holes don’t need cutting in the bodywork.  Around 2001, the Toyota 4AGE 1.6 engine was quite popular as one of Tigers' Southern agents (RAW Engineering) started fitting them to their cars as a great compromise between cost, performance and weight.

The R6 came out in 2000 and was designed from the outset with the Zetec in mind.  The B6 variant being "sparse" to save weight and utilise bike engines.

Finally, the Avon and variants started life as a model called the Avon Sprint which originally had the Rover K series engines and was built by Phoenix Automotive from around 2000.  Tiger bought the rights to the model and modified it to take Ford running gear as their budget model to compete with the surge in popularity of the "Locost" movement.  It was technically possible to build your own chassis from the plans in the Build Your Own Tiger Avon book and go the full "Locost" route, but most people went down the route of purchasing the chassis and bodywork.  The big difference between this and other Tiger models as it has full independent double-wishbone suspension all around.


With all of that said, all kit cars will have their own quirks and nuances, so choice is very much a personal preference of what you fit in to and what you think looks good.  I would also argue that there is very little between the different "seven" style models produced by Tiger when on the road, mainly as it just isn't possible to get anywhere near the limits safely on the road.  All will be extremely good fun, an attack on the senses and a real escape from the humdrum of (most) normal cars on the road today, giving an excuse to go out for a drive.
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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #8 
Well what a fantastic amount of information, with all the input on here I have gained the courage to put a deposit down this evening on a car.
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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #9 
Well I have at last made my purchase, tiger s6 with 2 litre silver top on EFI, will now be looking to dyno it, what should I be hopping for, and any sensible ideas to boost it up to around 170bhp. Thanks
And any tips on where to get a front splitter, and should I make a rear diffuser or buy, ie alli or carbon
Thanks Again
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greengreenwood7

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Reply with quote  #10 
ah the old power can of worms.....too many variables to give an accurate answer. In theory if its got a decent exhaust and all is well with the engine/induction etc, then 170bhp 'standard' is quite normal. Then again, have heard others say that theirs was less....

Best just to drive it and see how it performs - irrespective of what a dyno says, if you think you will be doing works, then would suggest that you use the same dyno. That way it doesnt matter what the figures are, its the comparison that will matter....if its 160 now and you do works, and at the same place with no fudging it shows 180, then its more powerful. If you do the works go somewhere else and its the same you'll wonder why!

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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #11 
Thankyou for your reply, I think once I have changed the sump, for a baffled one I will just have some fun as you suggest. I am currently checking out insurance quotes for road use and including some track days, any advice on who to try.
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greengreenwood7

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Reply with quote  #12 
Insurance - each have their fav's, in reality the brokers have a choice between just a few underwriters, so often it comes down to which broker is sensible about renewals and  easy to deal with.
My money has gone to A-Plan ( only the thatcham branch deal with kits ask for Carlie)...
I had a claim for a £1700 or so with them a cple of yrs ago and it put the premium up the next yr by a whopping - tenner. With a good agreed value, and including UK/EU breakdown think my prem is now £180....which i think is fair.
Tried a few others in the past and i got fed up with the haggle at renewal time....

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Gazza

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Reply with quote  #13 
Congratulation on the purchase of your car.....

The Tiger with a Silver Top Engine should be around the 160 bhp mark.

The best sump is the Raceline unit followed by the Tiger Racing ERA wet sump, you will find that you wont need them on the road but once you get on track it is surprising how much oil can surge to one side and into the catch tank when you start to corner a bit faster.

For car insurance I would recommend either A-Plan or Footman James....I have never had to claim but the service for insuring the car is ok

I think that you might find that once you start asking about Track Day Cover the insurance costs will climb very fast as the level of risk has gone up.

As the car should be a lot quieter than mine you might get away with taking it to Bedford which is a good track for someone that has never been on track with this sort of car before as it has plenty of run off areas if you do have a whoops moment.

The Track Day company that I would recommend is  called "Open Track" - https://www.opentrack.co.uk

Dave tends to run a more relaxed day without too many people whose ego is bigger than their ability, he is strict but in a nice way.

The other positive is that you can book free tuition on the day and down load the pictures of your car free as well.

Dave also used to other free donuts and other bits to eat but I think MSV didnt like it and stopped it.

For a diffuser contact Paul at Tiger Racing as they do a Fibre Glass unit or if you want some Bling contact Mark at Carbon NV -  http://www.carbon-nv.co.uk/products.html

The Tiger one will fit and you can get it fitted there as well, I am not sure if the Carbon NV onr will fit as it is for a Westfield really.

Lastly if you do need to repack the exhaust I can also recommend Acousta-Fil Exhaust Wadding/Packing - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acousta-Fil-Exhaust-Wadding-Packing-Reduces-Silencer-Noise-350mm-Length/371091964680?hash=item5666ce0308:g:HR8AAOSwaNBUfQ5~:rk:1😋f:0

Hope this helps....

Best Regards,

Gazza

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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #14 
Once again thankyou for your ideas, I will now crack on and and see what I can come up with.
Thanks again
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TOC_Admin

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazza
The best sump is the Raceline unit followed by the Tiger Racing ERA wet sump,


I have no arguments about the Raceline sump being the best, but then you do pay for it - many people won't have paid that for their entire engine.


However, as purchased, the Tiger ERA sump is not baffled, so it is far from ideal (see pictures of the standard Zetec sump alongside and ERA sump)


ERA-sump-01.jpg

Tigers' solution of welding a couple of vertical pieces onto the windage tray really isn't sufficient, so if you go down this route, look into making up some proper baffling around the pickup pipe.

I built my car with a silver top Zetec and Tigers' modified aluminium sump (which leaked, so did the replacement), along with exactly the same baffling as they recommend with their ERA sump.  Under hard braking, you could see the oil pressure light flashing on which is inherently bad as it means that the pickup pipe has sucked in air, rather than the oil and indicates the baffling is insufficient.

My car has only been used on the road and I would therefore argue that sump baffling is required whether you use the car on the road or the track.


I replaced my engine with a black top Zetec back in 2003 and DIY'd the steel sump with proper baffles surrounding the pickup pipe and haven't noticed any issues with oil pressure or starvation since.


There was someone who made some amazing baffles for the ERA sump, but I can't find the link or pictures right now, but just Googling "tiger era sump baffling" brings up some posts on Locost Builders where people have had issues with the unbaffled ERA sump:

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=174107
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=170587
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=139696

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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks for your info, Well it seems that this being the most important thing you can do to protect your engine, more so I& it’s going to be used on track days, infact my friend did learn the hard way. It’s a question I think of pay up and get the best job done, and hurry up and enjoy the money that’s been then well spent. Thanks
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Dreckly

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Reply with quote  #17 
On the subject of track days, your right Bedford is good fun, and the guys running it were very helpful and gave some good tips, I would also add that Croft is a great circuit as well. I look forward to revisiting as many tracks as I can next year, and improving the car., oh and my driving.
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