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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi all,

I’m looking for some advice regarding the fuel system for my Cat.

It has a 1.6 pinto with twin 40 DCOEs, but is otherwise stock. The carbs are very closely coupled to the engine and look pretty, but if I’m honest are a massive overkill for the engine.

The fuel system comprises the tank, an electric fuel pump (unsure of brand, but sites adjacent to the tank), then pipework straight to the carbs. There’s no filter, pressure regulator, nor a fuel return to the tank (there is a return pipe in the engine bay which is just flapping about). Doesn’t feel that this is necessarily right(?)

I’ve had some trouble with hot starting, and have to rev to keep the engine going in traffic. Also, when I parked the car up in the garage, it stank the house out with petrol (and I mean stank it out - I could smell fuel upstairs in the opposite corner of the house!).

I’ve read about heat sink into DCOEs causing the fuel to expand, float levels to rise flooding the engine, etc. and am wondering if this is part of the problem, combined with lack of regulator or fuel return connection.

Any thoughts please?

Thanks
Ed


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TOC_Admin

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Reply with quote  #2 
Carbs don't need a return fuel line to the tank, so the unused return pipe should be of no concern.

Electric fuel pumps for carbs cut out when they hit a certain pressure in the line. Therefore, your issue sounds like the classic problem of the fuel pump overcoming the floats, and the resolution is to simply install an adjustable pressure regulator between the end of the fuel line and the carbs. This restricts the amount of fuel flowing to the carbs, whilst increasing back pressure on the fuel pump, causing it to cut out as necessary.

Whilst you're doing that, I would also recommend you install an inline filter between the tank and the pump. You can get transparent low pressure filters for a couple of pounds which allow you to easily see when they need replacing.
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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #3 
Thank you for your reply - much appreciated [smile]

Can you recommend a particular adjustable pressure regulator/brand at all please? There seems to be a myriad of options available.

Cheers
Ed

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Carnoustiecat

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Ed

I use a Filter King on mine, this has a filter and a pressure regulator on it. Go for the one with the threaded bit to allow you to fit a pressure gauge to set it, only fit the gauge for setting the pressure, then remove and fit the blanking plug. From memory pressure for Webers should be about 3.5 psi.

Hope this helps.

Scott

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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #5 
Hi Scott,

Thanks for the recommendation. Will re-confirm the fuel pipe bore diameters and order one from Demon Tweeks this eve [thumb]

Fingers cross that'll fix it!

Thanks both for your help - much appreciated.

Ed

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overdriver

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Reply with quote  #6 
I also had a very 'smelly Cat' - sometimes more noticeable the morning after a run but almost permanent whilst in the garage. It also seemed to be losing fuel through evaporation as the gauge would show a significantly reduced level if left for any length of time.

Replacing the flexi fuel line from the tank to the copper pipe (no electric pump) seemed to cure the problem. As you are going to insert a filter in that area, you may wish to consider renewing the fuel line if it's the original. Due to changed ethanol levels in modern fuels, earlier hose compositions become porous and need to be replaced with SAE J30 R9 or better (ensure genuine spec. from reliable source!).

Ideally, all of the 'rubber' fuel hose is best replaced including from copper pipe to carbs. In my case fuel sat in and basically corroded the lowest piece of hose.

Michael.

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Motobuild

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Reply with quote  #7 
I would say that twin forties on a standard 1.6 is overkill so I'd reckon she is flooding.fit a fast road cam.or smaller carbs maybe?!?!
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TOC_Admin

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Reply with quote  #8 
You can fit smaller chokes and jets to the carbs if necessary, there is definitely no need to get smaller carbs.

I also echo what Overdriver says about the fuel lines.  I run injection and had my high pressure line "blow" and sprayed petrol everywhere under the bonnet due to the fuel lines degrading - luckily, I was on the drive about to go out, so the engine was cold when it happened to me, so no risk of fire, but it could make a mess if the engine had been hot.

After fitting a filter and regulator, I would recommend getting it set up properly by a local specialist - I'm sure somebody local to you can recommend suitable places.



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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #9 
Good shout Overdriver re:fuel lines - I stuck my head underneath the back this evening and one of the cotton braided fuel hoses is wet with fuel. I'll add a couple of meters of fuel hose to the Demon Tweeks order!

The plan for the winter is to fit the regulator and fuel lines, do an oil/filter/spark plug change, coolant flush and sort a woolly gear change (I'll start a separate discussion on that once I've had a look into it...) and SORN it until the spring. There's a rolling road just north of Derby that I'll use to set it up properly when it's coming out from winter hibernation [thumb]

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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motobuild
I would say that twin forties on a standard 1.6 is overkill so I'd reckon she is flooding.fit a fast road cam.or smaller carbs maybe?!?!


I agree, but that's what the car came with, so I'm going to try to make them work for me in the first instance. Besides, they'll come in handy if (when) I swap out the 1.6 for a 2.0...

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Reply with quote  #11 
Hi Ed  

If you're going to be flushing out your cooling system over the winter, while you're doing this I would have a good look at all the rubber hoses.
I don't know what year your car was built but mine had been built about 10 years when I got it and after a couple of cooling system leaks I decided to bite the bullet and replace all the hoses, never had a problem since, might be worth checking out for peace of mind.

Scott

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overdriver

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Reply with quote  #12 
Hi Ed,

Just pre-empting a future topic you may post, a 'woolly' gear-change is likely to be due to the original remote arrangement (a rose joint and 'flag-post' affair). If you use 'remote gear' in the search facility you will see a number of references to replacing the old unit. It might raise further questions so don't hesitate to ask.

Michael.



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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #13 
Scott, Michael - thanks for the tips, I really appreciate it.

The fuel system upgrades have been ordered from Demon Tweeks, so hopefully that’ll solve snag no. 1!

I suspect there’s going to be a whiff of Trigger’s broom about my Cat over the next few months...

Cheers
Ed

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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #14 
Hi all,

Whilst looking into the fuel system, I've had a good look around the twin Webers and have a couple of questions. Apologies if they've been answered elsewhere/already! The vacuum pipe on the manifold has two pipes plumbed into it - 1 is the crank case breather, and the other is to the dizzy:

1. I've read elsewhere that Webers should have a non-vacuum dizzy - is this correct? If so, looks like I've got the wrong dizzy for the carbs.
2. Should the crank case breather really be attached to this? I thought that they should vent to atmosphere?

Thanks
Ed

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overdriver

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Reply with quote  #15 
Evening Ed,

Not sure what dizzy you have but (and I stand to be corrected on this) my understanding is that in the case of twin Webers the vacuum advance is pretty ineffective and is best disconnected from the manifold - with resultant holes sealed of course. I'm aware of this being done on vacuum dizzys without causing problems although some have felt the need to adjust the timing slightly to compensate for the marginally reduced advance at low rev pick-up. Whilst a non-vac diz with bob-weights specific for your engine may seem desirable, there doesn't seem much point in investing in one if you're going to change the engine anyway....... at which point you may well be considering a completely different type of spark control.

Re. crank case breather pipe. Have a look at previous posts using 'oil catch tank' in search keywords. Essentially, the accepted route for the breather plumbing is crankcase>catch tank>cam cover.

Nice looking car by the way. You may want to rotate the w/screen wiper motor parking switch plate so that the wipers park to the right......... not that they get used much!

Michael.

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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks for the tips Michael - if we ever meet, the beer tokens that I owe you are starting to stack up! [biggrin]

So, today I fired the Cat up to bring to work as a last blat before taking it off the road for the winter and to install the new bits from Demon Tweeks - I thought that I may as well use some fuel prior to draining the system down to fit the new hoses.

Anyway, I fired her up and a lovely splat of oil ended up on the garage wall from out of the exhaust as I blipped the throttle. Great.

Things I can think of:
1. Head gasket, although temperature is fine and there's no mayo in the expansion tank or under the oil cap.
2. Valve stem oil seals - these were replaced by the previous owner, and new valves with 3 angle valve seats installed.
3. Incorrect crank case breathing as described above - I've got the oil catch tank and other bits on order to resolve.
4. Piston rings, although again these were replaced (along with the big end bearings) as part of the build.

Does anyone have any other suggestions please?

At this rate I may be looking for that 2.0 pinto engine sooner rather than later [frown]

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overdriver

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Reply with quote  #17 
Are you sure it's oil Ed? I used to park my Cat with the exhaust inches away from a domestic oil filled radiator, a white one. Cold starts producing fuel-rich, sooty deposits mixed with condensation soon changed its hue!

Pure oil being emitted unburnt from the exhaust sounds rather odd. You say the 'splat' occurred on blipping the throttle. Was this as the engine fired or had it been running for a while? Does it continue to expel 'oil' whilst running? Any white or blue smoke from exhaust? 

Presumably you've checked to see that the oil level is not diminishing and pressure is constant so the next course of action should be a compression test. It's not really worth speculating about until that's done unless there are any other obvious signs. 

Just a point on lack of 'mayo'. It could still be head gasket if the blow was between oil gallery and combustion chamber rather than (the more common) oil and water galleries.

Michael.

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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #18 
Hi Michael,

I opened the door to the garage to take a look yesterday (I'd shut the door on it and left it for a couple of days) to find the wall covered in soot rather than oily residue. Phew!

I then fired her up and took her for a quick blast. Oil pressure was showing 25-30psi at idle, rising to 55-60 at 60mph in 5th. I am getting a bit of a white cloud when I blip the throttle at idle when the engine is cold and at temperature, but I know that it is over-fuelling (hence this thread).

Hopefully the rich running at the start (plus the general over-fuelling - I'm going to get the carbs tuned professionally once I've fitted the fuel regulator) explains it.

Cheers
Ed

PS - Scott, I checked the coolant hoses and a few of them are a bit crispy!

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Carnoustiecat

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hi Ed
        Well worth replacing all the coolant hoses if your going to drain and flush the system. Last thing you need is an over heating issue due to a burst hose. Fortunately when mine burst it was at my work where I had the tools and materials to do a temporary fix to get me home, wouldn't have been funny if it had happened in the middle of nowhere, so well worth doing for you own peace of mind.

Scott

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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #20 
Hi Scott,

I can empathise. A coolant hose went on the M1 on my old Seat Ibiza 6-7 years ago - it wasn't fun waiting on the hard shoulder waiting for the RAC to patch me up!

I'm going to figure out what hoses I need (at a glance the install looks like some chopped down standard Sierra top/bottom hoses along with some standard straight hose) and hit eBay.

Going back to the original query I had on the thread:
  • The fuel hoses have arrived and I'm waiting on the Filter King (should arrive in the next couple of days) to fit
  • I've ordered the block breather elbow, a breather oil cap and hosing from Burton Power to set up an oil catch tank (Michael, I'm basically copying your installation as seen on another thread)
I've been offered a Weber 32/36 on a Pinto manifold pretty cheaply, and am wondering if that might be a better option than the twin 40 DCOEs on the 1.6, especially as the current dizzy uses vacuum (which I've read doesn't work properly on twin 40s), and the 32/36 would also be usable on a mildly tuned 2.0. I recognise that I'd have to cut the bonnet for an air filter, but it's currently tight in the engine bay for the 45mm K&Ns fitted, and I'd like to retrofit a vacuum brake servo at some point as the brakes are pretty wooden!

Any thoughts on this please? 

Thanks
Ed


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overdriver

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Reply with quote  #21 
Can't see replacing twin 40s with the downdraft 32/36 as being anything other than a retrograde step to be honest. If you feel you must do something about the dizz (other than blocking off the vacuum connections) it would seem logical to consider replacing it with a non-vacuum alternative or considering another type of ignition system - e.g. Accuspark, Nodiz or Megajolt. Reverting back to standard Pinto reduced performance spec. seems counter intuitive - not to mention the extra (& ugly?) hole in the bonnet.

It's common for new owners to feel that the brakes need assistance. You do get used to them after a while and start to appreciate that the extra pedal pressure required is part of engaging with the 'direct' aspect of the car. Servo assistance really isn't necessary; where it has been employed on very few examples it tends to make the car over-braked. Changing the fluid and pads if they've been in for sometime can make a difference and you can take it a stage further by replacing the master cylinder with a smaller bore version.

Well, that's my twopen'th anyway.

Michael. 

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Carnoustiecat

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Reply with quote  #22 
Hi Ed

           I would keep the webers if it was me, plenty of kit cars out there running the even older crossflow engine on twin 40's without any problems. Take the car to someone with a rolling road that knows webers and get them to see if it's set up correctly and adjust accordingly, i think this would be well worth the time and money. 

As for the brakes, like you when i first got my Cat i thought i had a braking issue, did a bit of research and decided to fit different front pads, my choice were EBC green stuff, this made a huge difference, you still need quite a lot of pressure on the pedal, but the brakes now stop the car much quicker.


Scott

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ejt7777

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Reply with quote  #23 
Thanks for your thoughts guys - much appreciated. I think that I was distracted by the offer of a temptingly cheap carb and manifold without thinking about it properly - I've declined.

It's also reassuring to hear your thoughts about the brakes. The car was built in 2010, and has only done 2100 miles in that time, but the fluid and possibly the pads could have degraded in that time. I'll add it to the list [wink]


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JimM

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Reply with quote  #24 
Hi Scott,

Where did you purchase your replacement hoses ?
Is there a kit available to swap out all the hoses on a Zetec (ST170) engine?
Any info on ordering will be welcome.

cheers
Jim

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Carnoustiecat

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Reply with quote  #25 
Hi Jim

No off the shelf kit available as far as I know, unless Tiger themselves can help with this. As I was fitting a new Polo style alloy radiator at the same time I carefully measured all the flanges that the hoses were fitting onto worked out all the different lengths, diameters and any bends that I would need to make it as neat as possible. I think I got some hoses from Car Builder Solutions (I've always found them very helpful), and any others were ordered from Ebay.
I always order a bit extra in case I come across any unforeseen problems. Oh and before I started I made sure the original pipework was connected in the correct places, there does seem to be a few different opinions on how this should be.

Scott

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